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Explaining your TrueAchievement score

  • iManuBAD iTiManuBAD iT406,023
    Posted on 04 January 22 at 09:12
    ACA NEOGEO games have a ridiculous TA ratio and I assure you they are NOT easy to complete (not all).

    There are some ACA NEOGEO games with a TA ratio of 1.10 and this deceives the player into thinking it is an easy game and yet it is far from easy to complete!
    Gaming is not a crime it's a culture | #iPLAY4FUN
  • ItsRoflzItsRoflz508,795
    Posted on 04 January 22 at 13:37
    Veedrock said:
    TA really shouldn't be as proud of its system as it is, it's just as busted as modern gamerscore. It was a fine first draft when achievements were a little more uniform, but it hasnt bothered to modernize at all over the years. High gamerscore achievements are still the most valuable TA score, while difficult but low gamerscore games remain a low TA value. It doesn't work as advertised, yet it remains despite suggestions for better formulas. If TA scores could go below their gamerscore value, even all the way to zero, it would go a long way towards performing its original intentions of making difficult 5 point achievements worth more than easy 150 point achievements. People would still play ratalaika games if their TA value was 0, except maybe in contests/community events where these kind of games are straight busted, ie proof the system doesn't work.

    It also boggles my mind that DLC is still optional in the year 2022, over 10 years after DLC has been normalized. The arguments for exclusion were always weak, but they haven't had ground in over a decade. Even the completion crowd doesnt ignore DLC achievements anymore, they avoid games with DLC even if they can pretend it doesnt exist here. DLC being optional really screws the ratio of DLC achievements to the point they're utterly unreliable.

    I'm in the majority that doesnt actually care about TA score and mostly uses this site for tracking and guides, so you could say i dont really have a dog in this race, but if the system were better I'd invest in it a lot more. Alas.
    Everything you said was really well pointed out and true imo
    Trev
  • ItsRoflzItsRoflz508,795
    Posted on 04 January 22 at 13:47
    I think the point that TA Ratio should be more emboldened is what shines through. Gamerscore, TA Score, TA Ratio, none of these are foolproof on their own, but they do work in unison really well. I think all these things together allow you to click on someones profile and make your own reliable assumptions on how "hard" their gaming profile is, regardless of gamerscore. Its all arbitrary numbers based off of a formula. Its not perfect, but people on the site need to apply all the categories when looking at someone's overall score.

    Side note: The whole "excluding" DLC thing really devalues the whole system, and honestly if you are still someone trying to keep DLC excluded... grow up lol
    Trev
  • Posted on 04 January 22 at 23:27
    Alberto Silva76 said:
    vSully said:
    PhoenixWartooth said:
    Alberto Silva76 said:
    Nowdays TA difference is the only real hard and good leaderboard.
    How do I actually go about calculating my TA difference? Is it easy to do?
    It's your TA score minus your gamerscore.

    tadifference

    It's still based on the flawed TA ratio formula, though.
    Yep vSully you are right TA difference leaderboard is also based on TA ratio formula...but at least it's a real score without steroids (xitilon, ratalaikas etc).
    Isn't TA difference just TA ratio with extra steps?
    Host of Unrenowned, a Rainbow Six: Siege Podcast. twitch.tv/wryguy
  • exit9500exit9500803,299
    Posted on 04 January 22 at 23:58
    Chaotic Fiasco said:
    Alberto Silva76 said:
    vSully said:
    PhoenixWartooth said:
    Alberto Silva76 said:
    Nowdays TA difference is the only real hard and good leaderboard.
    How do I actually go about calculating my TA difference? Is it easy to do?
    It's your TA score minus your gamerscore.

    tadifference

    It's still based on the flawed TA ratio formula, though.
    Yep vSully you are right TA difference leaderboard is also based on TA ratio formula...but at least it's a real score without steroids (xitilon, ratalaikas etc).
    Isn't TA difference just TA ratio with extra steps?
    That is one way to describe it although it adds back in the developer decided GS amounts. If you would rather use ratio to calculate it:
    TA Difference = TA ratio * GS amount - GS amount

    So it takes into account the GS value that was awarded for the achievement. Ratio is the better factor, still not great but better. But even the ratio has issues, mainly the way DLC is calculated.
  • Posted on 05 January 22 at 02:40
    I'm personally content with the current system, even though it's clear there are some issues with it; one such issue that kinda bugs me is how 'hard' achievements are often miles in difference between each other due to the fact that they're only weight on rarity.

    Ex.)
    Guitar Hero III: Legends of RockLiving LegendsThe Living Legends achievement in Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock worth 827 points5 Star all Co-op songs on Expert

    Torchlight IIIWoodsbeast GarbThe Woodsbeast Garb achievement in Torchlight III worth 160 pointsEquip the legendary Woodsbeast set.


    The Guitar Hero Achievement requires that you find someone IN PERSON who has the skill to get ~95% of notes on every story mode song in the game, a level of skill that typically requires an investment of dozens if not hundreds of hours in order to reach for people who don't already play instruments irl.

    The second is a Torchlight achievement that is purely RNG related and has you collect 6 pieces of armor. Despite a relatively low drop rate: the ability to equip drop rate boosting gear and relatively low turnaround time for enemy spawning means that this can be grinded out within a few hours, especially if you had already played through the game because you likely would've come across a handful of pieces already.

    Despite that difference in difficulty: the GH achievement is 6 ratio points below the Torchlight achievement.facepalm

    Just wanted to throw that example out since often times I only see discussions about ratalaika when people complain about TA score. The formula problem is unironically pretty hard to solve in my opinion as a perfect implementation would likely be able to aggregate effort to unlock achievements, player skill AND rarity into the TA score, something that I don't think is possible given how subjective video game skill already is
  • vSullyvSully1,301,003
    Posted on 05 January 22 at 03:55, Edited on 05 January 22 at 03:56 by vSully
    The S bot 9000 said:
    one such issue that kinda bugs me is how 'hard' achievements are often miles in difference between each other due to the fact that they're only weight on rarity.

    Ex.)
    Guitar Hero III: Legends of RockLiving LegendsThe Living Legends achievement in Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock worth 827 points5 Star all Co-op songs on Expert

    Torchlight IIIWoodsbeast GarbThe Woodsbeast Garb achievement in Torchlight III worth 160 pointsEquip the legendary Woodsbeast set.
    There are a lot of contributing factors here.

    The first is that ratio can never adequately reflect difficulty, only rarity.

    Torchlight 3 is barely over a year old and, if it wasn't for Game Pass, would have substantially fewer tracked gamers. The game has bloated ratios because so many people tried it and had no interest in sticking with it to completion. Without the Game Pass effect and assuming only 8k tracked gamers, the Woodsbeast Garb ratio would drop to 6.9 (assuming that the same number of players would have gotten this achievement since the reduction in total players removed people who only played the game briefly).

    I'd argue that the "difficult" GH ratios (a 360 game) feel too low and many of the Torchlight ratios (a Game Pass Xbox One game) "feel" too high, but I doubt any formula could rectify this. Game Pass creates a huge rarity effect with achievements in games that take any amount of effort, skill, and/or time since so many people have access to games and can try them briefly.

    I'd also argue that direct ratio comparison is not really reasonable, especially across generations. If I tell you one achievement has a 16 ratio and another has a 10 ratio, you can't possibly conclude that the 16 is "harder" than the 10, let alone conclude that it's harder by some quantifiable magnitude.

    And truly difficult 360 achievements rarely have high ratios akin to Xbox One ratios. Master of the Custodial Arts is incredibly difficult but it has a paltry 5.91 ratio:
    DustforceMaster of the Custodial ArtsThe Master of the Custodial Arts achievement in Dustforce worth 620 pointsScore double-S in all original single player levels


    If Dustforce went on Game Pass/GwG and had 8k tracked gamers (a reasonable amount) and there were 50% more unlocks (unlikely), the ratio would be 22.3. But again, no formula can overcome this sort of situation where games have either barely any tracked gamers or a metric fuckton due to Game Pass or GwG.

    But a better formula could reign in overvalued shovelware to try to better do what the formula was supposed to do to begin with. If a game takes 10 minutes to complete, it should give a fractional amount of TA (like 50, perhaps), not a minimum of 1000. This is the biggest issue with the way the formula works today.
  • Thief000Thief0001,216,453
    Posted on 05 January 22 at 07:49, Edited on 06 January 22 at 18:40 by Thief000
    vSully said:
    The S bot 9000 said:
    one such issue that kinda bugs me is how 'hard' achievements are often miles in difference between each other due to the fact that they're only weight on rarity.

    Ex.)
    Guitar Hero III: Legends of RockLiving LegendsThe Living Legends achievement in Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock worth 827 points5 Star all Co-op songs on Expert

    Torchlight IIIWoodsbeast GarbThe Woodsbeast Garb achievement in Torchlight III worth 160 pointsEquip the legendary Woodsbeast set.
    There are a lot of contributing factors here.

    The first is that ratio can never adequately reflect difficulty, only rarity.

    Torchlight 3 is barely over a year old and, if it wasn't for Game Pass, would have substantially fewer tracked gamers. The game has bloated ratios because so many people tried it and had no interest in sticking with it to completion. Without the Game Pass effect and assuming only 8k tracked gamers, the Woodsbeast Garb ratio would drop to 6.9 (assuming that the same number of players would have gotten this achievement since the reduction in total players removed people who only played the game briefly).

    I'd argue that the "difficult" GH ratios (a 360 game) feel too low and many of the Torchlight ratios (a Game Pass Xbox One game) "feel" too high, but I doubt any formula could rectify this. Game Pass creates a huge rarity effect with achievements in games that take any amount of effort, skill, and/or time since so many people have access to games and can try them briefly.

    I'd also argue that direct ratio comparison is not really reasonable, especially across generations. If I tell you one achievement has a 16 ratio and another has a 10 ratio, you can't possibly conclude that the 16 is "harder" than the 10, let alone conclude that it's harder by some quantifiable magnitude.

    And truly difficult 360 achievements rarely have high ratios akin to Xbox One ratios. Master of the Custodial Arts is incredibly difficult but it has a paltry 5.91 ratio:
    DustforceMaster of the Custodial ArtsThe Master of the Custodial Arts achievement in Dustforce worth 620 pointsScore double-S in all original single player levels


    If Dustforce went on Game Pass/GwG and had 8k tracked gamers (a reasonable amount) and there were 50% more unlocks (unlikely), the ratio would be 22.3. But again, no formula can overcome this sort of situation where games have either barely any tracked gamers or a metric fuckton due to Game Pass or GwG.

    But a better formula could reign in overvalued shovelware to try to better do what the formula was supposed to do to begin with. If a game takes 10 minutes to complete, it should give a fractional amount of TA (like 50, perhaps), not a minimum of 1000. This is the biggest issue with the way the formula works today.
    Yes, it should be a formula where TA could eventually end up being less than GS for more than the seven gamers that have a ratio less than 1 on this site. That way all those easy games will immediately be tossed aside by people that care so much about score.
  • Posted on 05 January 22 at 16:48
    vSully said:
    There are a lot of contributing factors here.

    The first is that ratio can never adequately reflect difficulty, only rarity.

    Torchlight 3 is barely over a year old and, if it wasn't for Game Pass, would have substantially fewer tracked gamers. The game has bloated ratios because so many people tried it and had no interest in sticking with it to completion. Without the Game Pass effect and assuming only 8k tracked gamers, the Woodsbeast Garb ratio would drop to 6.9 (assuming that the same number of players would have gotten this achievement since the reduction in total players removed people who only played the game briefly).

    I'd argue that the "difficult" GH ratios (a 360 game) feel too low and many of the Torchlight ratios (a Game Pass Xbox One game) "feel" too high, but I doubt any formula could rectify this. Game Pass creates a huge rarity effect with achievements in games that take any amount of effort, skill, and/or time since so many people have access to games and can try them briefly.
    True, I forgot that Torchlight is a gamepass title lol, but that would just further emphasis a need to establish some weight against GWG/Game Pass title wouldn't it? If ratio is going to be intended to reflect rarity as the supreme factor for value then I think many of the complaints would be moot as the current system does provide exactly that, despite it having its shortcomings.

    I'd also argue that direct ratio comparison is not really reasonable, especially across generations. If I tell you one achievement has a 16 ratio and another has a 10 ratio, you can't possibly conclude that the 16 is "harder" than the 10, let alone conclude that it's harder by some quantifiable magnitude.

    And truly difficult 360 achievements rarely have high ratios akin to Xbox One ratios. Master of the Custodial Arts is incredibly difficult but it has a paltry 5.91 ratio:
    DustforceMaster of the Custodial ArtsThe Master of the Custodial Arts achievement in Dustforce worth 620 pointsScore double-S in all original single player levels

    I would agree with that, to me these direct comparisons work solely as ballpark estimates of difficulty (i.e something in the 6+ range will nearly always require some form of skill/effort higher than a <3.0 achievement).
    If Dustforce went on Game Pass/GwG and had 8k tracked gamers (a reasonable amount) and there were 50% more unlocks (unlikely), the ratio would be 22.3. But again, no formula can overcome this sort of situation where games have either barely any tracked gamers or a metric fuckton due to Game Pass or GwG.

    But a better formula could reign in overvalued shovelware to try to better do what the formula was supposed to do to begin with. If a game takes 10 minutes to complete, it should give a fractional amount of TA (like 50, perhaps), not a minimum of 1000. This is the biggest issue with the way the formula works today.
    After some thinking over the past few months, I do agree that shovelware should see some form of nerfing in score, but the more I think about it the more I feel like TA would also have to boost longer completions that fall on the opposite end of the spectrum too as those are incredibly disincentivized in the current format. As GrimaceTheGrey mentioned: Dark Souls is an estimate of 80-100 hours to complete it for a paltry ~2500. Titles like Steredenn offer nearly double the TA score for basically a quarter of the time spent.

    I would consider Steredenn a much more difficult game so i'm not suggesting for Dark Souls to get a 2x boost to account for the time investment but some sort of bell curve that offers fractional increases (and decreases) would help prevent a change like nerfing shovelware becoming just a meta switch from ratalaika grinding to obscure sales and gamepass grinding which in my opinion wouldn't do much to help solve the underlying issue of bringing equity to the system.
  • vSullyvSully1,301,003
    Posted on 05 January 22 at 17:57, Edited on 05 January 22 at 17:57 by vSully
    Some scattered thoughts:

    I think you might be asking a little bit too much of ratio. All a ratio can do is tell you how rare an achievement is based on the number of people that have unlocked it and the number of people that have started the game.

    And again, ‘inflation’ from game pass or games with gold is not really something you can adjust through the ratio formula. Ratio just considers rarity and when there’s a lot of people that play a game and not many choose to complete it, the rarity of the achievements is what it is.

    Ratio doesn’t do a good job of telling you how difficult a game is since it’s just a sum of individual achievement values factoring in massively imbalanced and largely inconsistent gamerscore values.

    Consider a game with 2 achievements worth 1000 gamerscore (I know this is impossible but bear with me just for the sake of simplicity). One of these achievements is unlocked just for starting the game and the other is absurdly difficult- perhaps a 30 ratio.The total TA value of the game, and therefore the game’s overall ratio, would be wildly different if the hard achievement was worth 100 gamerscore or if it was worth 900 gamerscore. Yet nothing about the gameplay would be different, just the gamerscore values. So for this reason, the game’s ratio (3.9 or 27.1) doesn’t really tell you anything.

    Ratio can do a good job of giving you some insight into the rarity/difficulty of individual achievements, but kind of breaks down when you try to draw a conclusion about a game based on the game’s over all ratio.

    I feel like a broken record, but again, ratio exists because of the imbalance between pressing start in the Simpsons game for 5 gamerscore vs doing something difficult in Guitar Hero for 5 gamerscore. But the current ratio formula fails greatly when you consider that you can play a handful of shovelware games for 30 minutes and earn more TA then you would from completing a hard game that could take a weeks or months. The Simpsons game/Guitar Hero achievement issue at the foundational level of the website hasn’t adequately been addressed and I think it could be with a better formula.
  • imaidiot19imaidiot191,823,888
    Posted on 07 January 22 at 17:09
    How I explain my score: Look, I played most of these games for achievements, so don't judge me.
    Yes, I know I am.
  • GrimaceTheGreyGrimaceTheGrey1,302,738
    Posted on 08 January 22 at 02:41
    So... I'm chiming back in late here, but I had an idea that maybe would please some of the people who have been complaining that they feel their TA score doesn't fairly represent "how good they are" when someone can surpass them with Ratalakias and Xtillion games, but have a significantly lower ratio.

    Now far be it from me to be that guy that would tell anyone how to run this site, in fact I have 0 issues, but just hear me out, and if this has been suggested, I apologize.

    Now the most common suggestion people have brought up is that TA score should just be the difference. Obviously this doesn't keep in line with Rich's vision of the site, and ultimately changes the entire formula.

    Simply chasing your ratio unfortunately isn't the greatest metric since its easy to see there are some dummy tags at the top who popped a handful of difficult achievements to ruin it for everyone.

    The 2021 leaderboards that had TA difference made me think... what if along with TA Score and GS on your page, TA difference was also shown? Along with this a badge, and site position could be shown. This would effectively give people who have been asking for a change what they want, without actually changing anything. Just a thought.
  • borders r usborders r us245,842
    Posted on 09 February 22 at 12:59
    Apologies if this has been answered somewhere, but how do 0 GS achievements contribute to TA ratio? As an example, in Call of Duty: World at War, the achievements for reaching 1st and 10th prestige are both 0 GS and 0 TA score, but have a TA ratio. How does this work?
    borders r us - Kerchow
  • Johnny SinisterJohnny Sinister1,978,980
    Posted on 09 February 22 at 13:28
    borders r us said:
    Apologies if this has been answered somewhere, but how do 0 GS achievements contribute to TA ratio? As an example, in Call of Duty: World at War, the achievements for reaching 1st and 10th prestige are both 0 GS and 0 TA score, but have a TA ratio. How does this work?
    Since they are still achievements and have a rarity, they will have a ratio. But, as I am sure you know, any number multiplied by zero is still zero.

    It may seem strange that the site didn't incorporate a way to give some sort of score for these achievements, but it would also be strange if gamers got positive TA score from using some of the old apps like YouTube or Netflix.

    Zero point achievements still count towards total achievements won and completion percentage, so they do factor into your trueachievement stats.
  • Belindo152Belindo152408,296
    Posted on 09 February 22 at 13:39, Edited on 09 February 22 at 13:43 by Belindo152
    borders r us said:
    Apologies if this has been answered somewhere, but how do 0 GS achievements contribute to TA ratio? As an example, in Call of Duty: World at War, the achievements for reaching 1st and 10th prestige are both 0 GS and 0 TA score, but have a TA ratio. How does this work?
    The TA ratio for a single achievement is calculated: SQRT( GamersWithGame / GamersWithAchievement ) which in case of It’s All about Prestige is SQRT( 295701 / 70350 ) = ~2.04

    To get the TA score, you multiply the GS by the ratio. In case of a 0G achievement, the TA score is also 0 because zero multiplied by any number is still zero.

    The TA Ratio of a complete game is looking at the total TA score for all achievements divided by the total GS for all achievements.

    Then we can conclude that a 0G achievement does not contribute to the weighted TA ratio of a complete game. However, I feel like it should, as generally people use the TA ratio to see how difficult a game is. Would be a pity if a game seems easy with a ~2 TA ratio, but you end op with 99% completion because that one 0G achievement is very hard to achieve with a ratio of 30.

    Image to go with the talk: https://i.ibb.co/9v1715T/TA-Ratio.png
  • JbxTH21JbxTH21114,126 114,126 GamerScore
    Posted on 25 March 23 at 12:30
    I just kept thinking of how the calculation of TrueAchievements Score vs Gamerscore works ....... now as it is explained i am relieved ..... thanks to the mode Heidi Nicholas.
    JB
  • Posted on 16 May 23 at 14:18
    So question
    Playing games whit low ratios can downgrade my 2.0 ratio to like 1.9-8?
    Or is just getting bigger and bigger whit time?
  • VeedrockVeedrock790,613
    Posted on 16 May 23 at 16:16
    GAEL ALEJANDRO said:
    So question
    Playing games whit low ratios can downgrade my 2.0 ratio to like 1.9-8?
    Yes, ratio can go down.
    "If you haven’t completed the arena why should you get a say for anything arena related at any point?" - DaxterDude, on Sea of Thieves discontinueds
  • Posted on 16 May 23 at 17:11
    Veedrock said:
    GAEL ALEJANDRO said:
    So question
    Playing games whit low ratios can downgrade my 2.0 ratio to like 1.9-8?
    Yes, ratio can go down.
    Okay thank you friend
  • VeedrockVeedrock790,613
    Posted on 12 January 24 at 22:23, Edited on 12 January 24 at 22:24 by Veedrock
    You know, when this article didn't get republished for the 2022 holiday crowd I was somewhat hopeful that there was some kind of change in the works. Now here we are past the 2023 holiday season and again this didn't get published. I think it got deleted but I saw a comment from TA in the 2023 leaderboards thread about how the site wouldn't exist without TA Score so it'll never change, but if that's the case why is this "help" article not featured anymore, even without comments? It seems contradictory.

    To be clear I'm not trying to bring up the merit of it again, I know that discussion is hashed out elsewhere.
    "If you haven’t completed the arena why should you get a say for anything arena related at any point?" - DaxterDude, on Sea of Thieves discontinueds
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